2010 University of Michigan Football Thread

[natzke4]

harbaugh isnt coming here

Yep. Most people are thinking he goes to San Fran 49ers at the end of the NFL season.

 

[MxRacerCam]

I think Michigan should extend RichRods contract at least another five years. They are so close...

i agree. give the guy a chance!

 

[MxRacerCam]

Well I was perfect on my predictions for this year. I must admit, I am amazed we even won 7 games with a total shit show for a kicking game, and no defense. Rich Rod has decimated this program, what a disgrace he is. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!

pretty impressive predictions justin.

 

[Swifster]

pretty impressive predictions justin.

X2, fine job!

 

[Stalker]

I can't believe how utterly clueless you are, seriously. Change for the better, really?

2008 - 3-9
2009 - 5-7
2010 - 7-5

That's "change for the better"? Listen to yourself dude. Did you... watch that game Saturday? Embarrassing. Pull your head out of your ass Ryan. As for Carr leaving the cupboard bare, that couldn't be further from the truth. Ever heard of this kid named Ryan Mallett?

If you want to talk shitty recruiting, look at Rich Rod. He hasn't done a fucking thing! you make my head hurt.

How many times can you contradict yourself in the same thread?

Let's start with the whole "Lloyd was the best recruiter known to man, he left Rich Rod a team that if Lloyd was still coaching would have went 11 - 0".

2007: The Disaster
I was scanning some message board or another and came across a statement about the '07 recruiting class and how it was dooming Michigan this year, so I took a look. The conclusion: holy pants, what a disaster. Here they are by position group they'd are or would be playing on this year's team, with available players bolded.
The dossier
QB: Ryan Mallett is doing well… at Arkansas.
RB: Vince Helmuth transferred to Miami(Not That Miami), where he has zero carries. Avery Horn left school and was at Reedley CC in California last year. He's not there this year, but he's not anywhere else, either.
WR: Junior Hemingway is a starter. Zion Babb landed at a JUCO after getting the boot and was supposed to transfer to Colorado but didn't make it. Toney Clemons did make it to CU; he's their second-leading receiver with 18 catches for 219 yards.
OL: David Molk is going to be a four-year starter. Mark Huyge is the first guy off the bench at either tackle position and started all of last year.
TE: Martell Webb is a co-starter with Kevin Koger and has been a four-year contributor but not a star.
DL: Ryan Van Bergen is an above-average Big Ten player. Renaldo Sagesse is a backup who gets spot snaps. Steve Watson moved from TE to DE and is this year's David Cone.
LB: JUCO Austin Panter is out of eligibility. Marell Evans transferred to I-AA Hampton. Brandon Herron is Craig Roh's backup when he's healthy.
DB: James Rogers is a very bad starter. Donovan Warren was a multi-year starter who made a bad decision to leave for the NFL. Michael Williams is buried on the depth chart and headed for a medical hardship because of concussions. Artis Chambers transferred to Ball State but is not on the roster. Troy Woolfolk's ankle exploded.
Total contributors from the redshirt junior/senior class
(starters bolded)
QB: 0.
RB: 0.
WR: 1, Hemingway.
OL: 2, Molk and Huyge.
TE: 1, Webb.
DL: 2, Van Bergen and Sagesse.
LB: 1, Herron.
DB: 1, Rogers. (Woolfolk was a success but would displace Rogers from this list if healthy.)
Of the guys who are gone, exactly two contribute to a I-A team: Mallett and Clemons. That's like six genuinely good football players out of 20 (Mallett, Hemingway, Molk, RVB, Warren, Woolfolk). That is not a successful recruiting class.
2008: The Divide

2008, divided into Rodriguez and Carr sections. JT Floyd and Brandon Smith committed post-RR but had Michigan as their leader for so long before that they are categorized as Carr guys. The two decommits aren't considered, but Wienke is a third-stringer at Iowa and TE Christian Wilson has eight catches in his career at UNC.
The Rodriguez dossier
QB: Justin "Win At All Costs" Feagin got in trouble and is gone.
RB: Michael Shaw is probably the starting tailback if healthy.
WR: Terrence Robinson is a marginal contributor. Martavious Odoms and Roy Roundtree are productive starters when healthy.
OL: Patrick Omameh is starting as a redshirt sophomore. Ricky Barnum is the primary backup at guard and should be a two-year starter.
LB: Taylor Hill transferred two weeks after arriving. He is a productive player at I-AA Youngstown State.
Six of eight guys are still around with five of them looking like successes, pending Barnum moving into the lineup next year.
The Carr dossier
RB: Mike Cox is fourth string behind Shaw and younger folks. Sam McGuffie got concussed three times in his freshman year and transferred to Rice, where he's their leading rusher.
WR: Darryl Stonum is a starter.
TE: Kevin Koger is a co-starter with Webb; Brandon Moore is still on the team but has not seen meaningful snaps.
OL: Dann O'Neill transferred to WMU, where he is a starter. Kurt Wermers transferred to Ball State after flunking out and complaining about how RR was bringing in people who "weren't his kind of crowd." Rocko Khoury is Molk's backup and did okay against Iowa. Elliot Mealer looks like a career backup at guard.
DL: Mike Martin is awesome.
LB: Marcus Witherspoon never enrolled because of a Clearinghouse issue. Kenny Demens just got his first start and looked pretty good. JB Fitzgerald has been buried behind Mouton and then Roh.
DB: Brandon Smith was too slow to play DB, didn't want to play linebacker, transferred to Temple, and promptly washed out. Boubacar Cissoko got pulled from the starting lineup for performance reasons, was kicked off the team, and saw his life spiral out of control. JT Floyd is in the starting lineup by necessity.
Ten of sixteen guys are still around with… uh. Stonum, Koger, and Martin are obvious successes. Demens and Floyd are contributors. Fitzgerald, Cox, Moore, Khoury and Mealer are looking like either career backups or meh senior starters on par with Greg Banks, though in Khoury's case he's locked behind a very good player.
Blame-y Section

This isn't a Yet Another Defense Of Rich Rodriguez post, it's Yet Another Roster Implosion Explanation post. (All right: some of both.)
In retrospect the #12 2007 class was overrated. Vastly so.
At the time the line was about the two hyped five stars and the "high upside" guys behind them who were underrated by the services and so forth and so on. The two five stars mostly lived up to that hype, but Mallett did it at Arkansas because of the coaching transition* and Warren took off for the NFL because he thought he was still that good. Meanwhile, the high upside guys mostly can't play football. Even if everyone from the class was still around Michigan would be suffering. Save Mallett, no one who left would see the field. Maybe Artis Chambers would provide some help in the secondary, but he moved to linebacker before his transfer and washed out at Ball State—it's hard to see him displacing Kovacs.
It should have been obvious that recruiting was going in the toilet when Michigan made two desperate reaches at linebacker, grabbing a JUCO guy and a two-star with one other offer(Temple), then made a desperate reach to get a second offensive lineman in the class. But three different groups are proving that subscription models can work on the internet because hope is impervious to reason.
Michigan bounced back in 2008, but a lot of that was the late Rodriguez additions. One man's listing of the top ten recruits in that class, Rodriguez guys bolded:
Mike Martin
Patrick Omameh
Roy Roundtree
Martavious Odoms
Kevin Koger
Michael Shaw
Darryl Stonum
Kenny Demens
Ricky Barnum
Rocko Khoury
RR's strike rate on 2008 recruits was considerably higher than Carr's, as Michigan seemed like a magnet for overrated guys. Witherspoon, Cissoko, Smith, O'Neill, McGuffie, Fitzgerald, Moore, and Stonum have all under-performed relative to expectations, with only Martin exceeding them. You can make a case that coaching has something to do with it but I believe evaluations are a major factor. From time to time a guy who knows an NFL scout relays his impressions (this year's theme: "Michigan has nothing on defense except for Martin. Who is this Rogers guy?") and from day one this guy said O'Neill was way too stiff and would not work out. Similarly, it's hard to imagine just what position Brandon Smith was going to play in the Big Ten.
Class of 2008 departures who might see the field this year are… well… Cissoko? Definite nos: Wermers, O'Neill, Feagin. Very probable nos: Hill (OLB; would not beat out Mouton or Roh), Witherspoon (could not find the field at Rutgers and washed out), and Smith (like Cam Gordon except worse).
So. Michigan's 2007 class was a disaster and attrition from it did not matter save Warren's early NFL entry. The two thirds of Michigan's 2008 class acquired by Carr was appreciably better but still not so good; Rodriguez's late additions brought it up to something approximating an average Michigan recruiting class when it comes to on-field success.
(By the way: Rodriguez's second class is looking divergent as hell. Massive nuclear strikes at QB and OL, yet another disaster of a DB class—Witty, Emilien, and Turner are all gone and Mike Jones is a linebacker.)

So basically, other than Ryan Mallet, he pretty much had one maybe 2 players that are either doing anything worthwhile, or are even playing still.

And on to the next point. You're bitching about a 7 - 5 season even though Carr's record wasn't all that much better.
Carr has 8 seasons where he won a max of 9 games out of the season (excluding bowl games). Of those 8 seasons, 4 of them were 8 win seasons or worse.

So for all intents and purposes, Justin and Mike should be sitting by happy as can be that they are right back where they were. Hell, they are complaining that with as shity of a team as UM has they pull out a 7 win Season, then obviously Rich Rod is an amazing coach and I'm not sure why they are complaining.

He should get another year and go from there. If there's no improvement, then so be it. Go look for a new coach and do it right this time.

 

[Swifster]

Ryan, you don't take into account the players that Rich Rod benched because of the system changes. RichRod never attempted to blend the pro-style players that were still there, bypassing them for his freshmen that were also greatly overrated. This was on defense AND offense. Even if you want to highlight the 2007 recruiting class, the remaining guys from 2006 didn't forget how to play when Rich Rod showed up. This was and has been a coaching problem and it lands at RichRod's feet. Other than Robinson, what RichRod recruit makes you say WOW! ? Those receivers who drop passes? Shaw? The ONLY two players on that team are Robinson and Martin. The rest would have a hard time making CMU the way they've played.

Oh, wait. I'm sorry, I want him extened another five years....Ignore what I just typed.

 

[jsxtreme]

How many times can you contradict yourself in the same thread?

Let's start with the whole "Lloyd was the best recruiter known to man, he left Rich Rod a team that if Lloyd was still coaching would have went 11 - 0".



So basically, other than Ryan Mallet, he pretty much had one maybe 2 players that are either doing anything worthwhile, or are even playing still.

And on to the next point. You're bitching about a 7 - 5 season even though Carr's record wasn't all that much better.
Carr has 8 seasons where he won a max of 9 games out of the season (excluding bowl games). Of those 8 seasons, 4 of them were 8 win seasons or worse.

So for all intents and purposes, Justin and Mike should be sitting by happy as can be that they are right back where they were. Hell, they are complaining that with as shity of a team as UM has they pull out a 7 win Season, then obviously Rich Rod is an amazing coach and I'm not sure why they are complaining.

He should get another year and go from there. If there's no improvement, then so be it. Go look for a new coach and do it right this time.

Did you really just quote the first thing that popped up on google, a fucking blog at that?

I have to agree with swifster here. *gasp* Dick Rod didn't try to incorporate the talent he had at all. There are a lot more than what you have there. No, Carr's last year wasn't his best recruiting class. But Jesus Christ it was far and above anything Rich Rod has done. Open your eyes Ryan, wake up and smell the coffee.

Look at Zolton Mesco, Chad Henne, Jake Long, Braylon Edwards..... Rich Rod has not and never will recruit that kind of talent. Period.

 

[mark468]

Clean out your desk RR your gone, i hope sooner than later, im not sure if JH will come but i dont think he going to nfl yet either, SF will go after a proven coach if they go after one at all..

 

[hangemhigh]

He's delusional. It's pointless argue with him. Back when Lloyd had 8-4 seasons, people like Ryan were screaming for his head. Now 8-4 sounds pretty good. Those 10-2, 9-3, 11-2, 12-0 seasons that we had with Lloyd... those are gone for a while.

oh, hey mike....there you're hiding......:wavey:

thought maybe you pulled up camp and were hosteling somewhere without internet......:lol:

 

[jsxtreme]

BTW I still love you Ryan, no matter how many STD's Rich Rod gives you. :kiss: :hug:

 

[Stalker]

Did you really just quote the first thing that popped up on google, a fucking blog at that?

I have to agree with swifster here. *gasp* Dick Rod didn't try to incorporate the talent he had at all. There are a lot more than what you have there. No, Carr's last year wasn't his best recruiting class. But Jesus Christ it was far and above anything Rich Rod has done. Open your eyes Ryan, wake up and smell the coffee.

Look at Zolton Mesco, Chad Henne, Jake Long, Braylon Edwards..... Rich Rod has not and never will recruit that kind of talent. Period.

You and I aren't talking about the same point. I'm not arguing at all that Rich Rod is a disappointment. I think it's inexcusable that our kicking game is what it is. Though it's not like UM hasn't had problems with kickers in the past, just not this bad. I also am upset that our Defense is about as strong as a hookers ability to say no to crack. What I'm saying is this:

1. Under Carr, in his 13 years as head coach, he had 8 seasons which were an 8-4 season or worse. That's just over half of his seasons. Assuming Rod gets another year and he's 8-4, He's right on par with Carr's record. 50% of his seasons sucking.
2. Carr left Richrod very little talent. Rich didn't force Mallett to leave the first season he was there, Mallett left on his own. The talent that was left was barely able to form a coherent pass route let alone win. Carr would have been at best 7-5 in 2008. Maybe 8-4 in 2009 and 10-2 this year. That's assuming his recruiting got better.
3. No matter what you want to say about who is coach now, the entire blame for how it all happened and turned out rests on the AD. So no matter how much you loved Carr, he needed to go. His recruiting was bad, his D was bad, his play calling was weak. If he had coaching all year how he did against Florida, then we wouldn't have the record for worse upset in Div 1 A Football. The fact is that Rich Rod is here, and he deserves a full 3 years of his people in their place with his recruits. If next year there isn't an improvement, then get rid of him and we'll start all over looking for a coach which will probably be someone who doesn't run Rod's offense and as such, we'll be down for another 3 to 4 years.

 

[jsxtreme]

You and I aren't talking about the same point. I'm not arguing at all that Rich Rod is a disappointment. I think it's inexcusable that our kicking game is what it is. Though it's not like UM hasn't had problems with kickers in the past, just not this bad. I also am upset that our Defense is about as strong as a hookers ability to say no to crack. What I'm saying is this:

1. Under Carr, in his 13 years as head coach, he had 8 seasons which were an 8-4 season or worse. That's just over half of his seasons. Assuming Rod gets another year and he's 8-4, He's right on par with Carr's record. 50% of his seasons sucking.
2. Carr left Richrod very little talent. Rich didn't force Mallett to leave the first season he was there, Mallett left on his own. The talent that was left was barely able to form a coherent pass route let alone win. Carr would have been at best 7-5 in 2008. Maybe 8-4 in 2009 and 10-2 this year. That's assuming his recruiting got better.
3. No matter what you want to say about who is coach now, the entire blame for how it all happened and turned out rests on the AD. So no matter how much you loved Carr, he needed to go. His recruiting was bad, his D was bad, his play calling was weak. If he had coaching all year how he did against Florida, then we wouldn't have the record for worse upset in Div 1 A Football. The fact is that Rich Rod is here, and he deserves a full 3 years of his people in their place with his recruits. If next year there isn't an improvement, then get rid of him and we'll start all over looking for a coach which will probably be someone who doesn't run Rod's offense and as such, we'll be down for another 3 to 4 years.

1. Right on par with Carr? Really dude? Carr's WORSE season was 7-5. What's Rich Rod's worse season? I'll wait.

You really think RRod is on the same level with this? Give me a fucking break. Did you forget we went to a rose bowl in 2006?

1995 Michigan 9-4
1996 Michigan 8-4
1997 Michigan 12-0
1998 Michigan 10-3
1999 Michigan 10-2
2000 Michigan 9ï-3
2001 Michigan 8-4
2002 Michigan 10-3
2003 Michigan 10-3
2004 Michigan 9-3
2005 Michigan 7-5
2006 Michigan 11-2
2007 Michigan 9-4

2. Let me put it to you this way, you think John L. Smith left the program chalked full of talent? Look what Dantonio did, 7-6 his first year then 9-4 the next.....

Good god I just realized I idolize MSU's program.

3. Bad defense? Really Ryan? Do you think before you type?

This year Michigan has allowed an average of 33.81 points per game. Carr's last season, and arguably his WORST, they allowed 20.25 points per game.

I literally can't talk to you about this any more. Mike is right, you just don't get it.

 

[Swifster]

Ryan, Mallett left because he isn't mobile. Didn't have to tell anyone what his chance to start would have been. Boren didn't like the coaching staff and left. Other that weren't spread type players have sat the bench as not being 'talented'. Those who actually came for an education stayed, rode pine and got their degree. And Michigan has gone in the tank. The change to the 3-3-5 has been a disaster. This is a RichRod special. How many major programs run this style of defense. How does Michigan go from 20 something on defense to 70 something, 80 something and now 100+ in total defense?

Do I think Rich Rod is a good coach? Sure. But this wasn't the right fit. And if Harbaugh comes here, say goodbye to the spread. More Lloyd Carr offense and defense. And they'll win some games. MSU, UM, Iowa, Northwestern, Nebraska and Minnesota will be brutal, especially if Minny gets Brady Hoke from San Diego State. 4 of those teams are good now, and both UM's with Harbaugh & Hoke will make this division tougher. First team to 5-3 wins the division.

 

[Stalker]

Yes, his defense was bad. What was sad was being able to predict his calls on offense. Every time he hiked the ball, I could call the play before it started. 80% of the time I was dead on right. If you think I could do that, what do you think the defensive coordinators of other teams were doing? On Defense we were in a bend don't break defense for the last half of the second and 4th quarter.

How many times were you willing to let Carr lose to App State, a 60+ ranked Notre Dame team, an inferior bowl game? The facts are simple. He needed to go. He's gone, I'm happy with that. Now focus on Rich Rod. If he's not improved by end of year 4 (which is what I've been saying all along) then get rid of him.

 

[Stalker]

We can talk hypotheticals all day. What I do know is that Carr is gladly gone and now we're trying to figure out if Rodriguez will be around next year or thereafter.

 

[jsxtreme]

Well I disagree with you wholeheartedly Ryan. It's time for him to go. The Rich Rod experiment failed, miserably. You can't deny that the team has the worse fundamentals of any Michigan team you or I have ever seen. Compound that with embarrassing losses, a non existent defense, and NCAA violations, he's gone. We'll just have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

 

[CRASH]

I'm not on the RR bandwagon, but I think the guy needs to stay at least 1-2 more years. Hey, the man's making progress. Two shitty years/losing seasons with a complete turnover in system and roster. Year three, at least it's a winning record and hitting a bowl game. If it weren't for the bowl game or winning 6+ games, he'd be gone hands down because that's intolerable for a program like Michigan to not be in a bowl game year after year. It's the simple facts.

RR has a good, YOUNG team that's capable of big things once it gets its shit together. One, two tops more recruiting classes and Michigan may have the potential to be on par with the major programs again, but it takes time and work, and I'll give RR that and he's pouring his heart and soul into this thing. You fire him now, bring in a new coach and a new system AGAIN, then we are going to go through the same house cleaning that happened after Lloyd left. Gotta find players that fit the system, and weed out the ones that don't. Personally, I think it's ridiculous of the carousel thats been going on down there. Give it time. They don't make any progress next year, then that's different, but I think that they will.

And Ryan, everybody knows what the spread offense is doing anyhow. The key part is having the correct personnel to be able to pull it off regardless. I bet the playbook is as thin as a piece of paper. Defense on the other hand, they need to switch back to a base 4-3 cover 2 and get some size. Get rid of that 3-3-5 nonsense asap. Our lineman and LBs get tossed around like rag dolls out there.

 

[MxRacerCam]

i dunno about all this turnaround business for RR. it seems like that if it weren't for Denard, michigans offensive would have been as bad as the defense. he is just very lucky to have him. i wonder what tate's stats are vs. denards this year? anyone have those numbers?

 

[hangemhigh]

well, they're both 0-1 versus OSU.........:roll:

 

[CRASH]

i dunno about all this turnaround business for RR. it seems like that if it weren't for Denard, michigans offensive would have been as bad as the defense. he is just very lucky to have him. i wonder what tate's stats are vs. denards this year? anyone have those numbers?

ok?

That's why Denard was brought here. He's young and this was his first time as a bonafide starter at this level. He's had growing pains and injuries and such, but he's capable of great things. Nobody really knew prior to this year other than a few flashes, but since he's solidified himself as the starter and as a competent one at that, other areas can be focused on now.