Ford to move production of Focus/Cmax out of Michigan.

[DetroitStyle]

Tell me then, where's the fairness in one guy on the line making $30/hr, and the newer making $16/hr, with the new tiered pay plans? How can a grown man feed his family on $16/hr.? This is where the middle-class is being obliterated. I'd say your notion is more along the lines of a 1920's mentality. It's ok if I've tripled my pay, but screw the other folks.....Unions came along to protect the workers from unreasonable hours and working conditions, and also help them achieve a reasonable lifestyle. History 101, Mr Economist.

Isn't that the way it should be? Shouldn't the new guy make less than the guy who's been there 20 years?

 

[Tin]

Isn't that the way it should be? Shouldn't the new guy make less than the guy who's been there 20 years?

Tier 2 unskilled positions max out at $19.28 per hour. The old timers are the ones getting $25 to $30 per hour. Most of those old guys are really apprehensive to leave, as they lost big when the economy crashed, forcing them to stick around and squirrel away whatever they can.

 

[DetroitStyle]

Tier 2 unskilled positions max out at $19.28 per hour. The old timers are the ones getting $25 to $30 per hour. Most of those old guys are really apprehensive to leave, as they lost big when the economy crashed, forcing them to stick around and squirrel away whatever they can.

I don't really see a problem with that. $30/hr jobs for what is essentially general labor don't exist outside of the auto industry. They should be grateful that the make $65k+/year (I know a lot of them are still getting a good amount of overtime and they can still make close to $100k/year) with the benefits and vacation time that they get. They are still doing very well, IMHO.

 

[BrainFearGone]

I don't really see a problem with that. $30/hr jobs for what is essentially general labor don't exist outside of the auto industry. They should be grateful that the make $65k+/year (I know a lot of them are still getting a good amount of overtime and they can still make close to $100k/year) with the benefits and vacation time that they get. They are still doing very well, IMHO.

The only problem with it is that potentially you could have two new hires start a week apart and because of when the contract went into effect one could be tier one and one could be tier two. Toledo had tier one temps that had been working 40 or more and were never officially hired in. When more people were needed they hired in and all got bumped down to $15hr when some were close to top out at $28. I agree low man should start less but the tier system is a mess.

 

[WhiteHawk]

Tier 2 unskilled positions max out at $19.28 per hour. The old timers are the ones getting $25 to $30 per hour. Most of those old guys are really apprehensive to leave, as they lost big when the economy crashed, forcing them to stick around and squirrel away whatever they can.

Who lost big? The UAW guys didn't give back anything. All they did was agree not to take raises and gave up a couple holidays (same pay just more work). 30 and out with full pension? Still got it. Lifetime health care? Still got it. To keep that they sold the people that hadn't been hired down the river.

-Geoff

 

[BrainFearGone]

Who lost big? The UAW guys didn't give back anything. All they did was agree not to take raises and gave up a couple holidays (same pay just more work). 30 and out with full pension? Still got it. Lifetime health care? Still got it. To keep that they sold the people that hadn't been hired down the river.

-Geoff

Exactly! And all they do is bitch about how they haven't had a raise in ten years. What happens when the tables are turned down the road when shit hits the fan and all are retired and are relying on lower tier new hires to vote on retirement healthcare and pension issues?

 

[DBK]

There wouldn't be nearly as much griping about the UAW if they relied on different rhetoric and tactics. People that haven't been inside a factory should be forced to see what a grinding, shitty living that can be. I know I wouldn't want to do that for $37k a year. But labor has done a piss poor job of modernizing, and still relies on language that portrays a comically adversarial relationship between labor and "management." The general public has a hard time viewing anybody making even $20 an hour, let alone $60 with benefits, as some poor Oliver Twist slaving in the workhouse.

Other than that, unions are one of the most glaring threat to democracy that exists. You may like the UAW, but apply the same principles your private sector union does to the public sector. Then realize there is an expanding army of extremely well-compensated government bureaucrats enshrining generous compensation and benefits for-life for their members that you are paying for. There's only one place that ends up, and we've got a front row seat to it right now...

 

[ASRoff]

Tell me then, where's the fairness in one guy on the line making $30/hr, and the newer making $16/hr, with the new tiered pay plans? How can a grown man feed his family on $16/hr.? This is where the middle-class is being obliterated. I'd say your notion is more along the lines of a 1920's mentality. It's ok if I've tripled my pay, but screw the other folks.....Unions came along to protect the workers from unreasonable hours and working conditions, and also help them achieve a reasonable lifestyle. History 101, Mr Economist.

History 101?!?! ya got it wrong....... Henry Ford created the 5 day work week in 1922.....then finalized the 40 hour monday-friday work week in 1926......last time I checked the UAW dident even exist until 1935..... get your history 101 right......

unions were good for improving EH&S but with the way things are now..... (the liticious and government oversite environment that we live in) its in company's best interests to keep workers healthy.

I work in a non-union shop. our safety and quality is WAY better than you could possibly imagine. (you better hope my quality is good if you have ever flown in a 737 or airbus A319-21) I wont say how much Im getting paid....but I will tell you its well above a uaw line worker. But then again I should be paid more just for the amount of responsibility I take. If a uaw worker fucks up you pull over to the side of the road....If i fuck up....well...... Also, I can build the WHOLE engine...not just 4 of the same bolts...... which means I might build a compressor rotor one day.....a turbine the next and machine and balance the rotor set the day after...... we dont get bored at the job.

We take ownership in the business meaning GE says they want X amount of engines for the year. We as a team (there are 4 teams on our engine program made up of 20 individuals) figure out how were going to make our number... we manage our self's we determine who goes on vacation. we cross train on everything because if "joe blow" does not show up to build up a gearbox.....anyone on my team can cover the build.

The job interview is 9 hours long......and we take the 90 trial period SERIOUSLY. you don't cut the mustard on the team...you get booted BY THE TEAM.... not management...... you fuck off and not get your shit done in a reasonable time with excellent quality We the TEAM documents it and sends your ass out the door. basically, we ask you to be an adult and take responsibility.

I was in a couple of unions in the past.....you know what I saw?!?! It protected alot of lazy shitheads that fuck up and create alot of work and late flights at the airlines... I was working at Northwest airlines when September 11th happened....... October 9th I was out the door...... was I mad?!?!? HELL NO! at the end of the day you have to realize that your name isent written on the side of the plane......... I actually smiled as I left....because I knew the high seniority assholes that sat on the couch and slept the whole time while us guys that had less seniority went out to fix planes..... those assholes would now have to do actual work. I saw right away that I had to start a big nest egg and create passive income to hedge against loosing a job in the future. if you don't its your own damn fault for a shitty retirement.

I admit that this country was founded on American ingenuity...... We have since become a country of middle management instead of the powerhouse of production that won 2 world wars...... we have put a college education ABOVE all else to the point where being a mechanic or a technician is going away......there is a shortage of workers for manufacturing jobs here in the us because of it. just check out www.mikeroweworks.com and see....... you can find ALOT of manufacturing jobs still in the U.S. but you have to be willing to go where the work is.....

With this shortage of folks willing to get dirty INSTEAD of pushing paperwork.......the simple fact is your going to need more of us in the future.....your plumbers, electricians, mechanics and builders are starting to become short in supply.


In summary unions were good back in its day but now, with all the government regulations on labor and workplace safety its redundant..... and if you think the jobs that the government provides to monitor working conditions are going away anytime soon......you haven't been paying attention to government waste.....


in the end....you will never get rich trading your time for money.......and if you do work for 40 years in a plant for a fat pension and a decent 401k....your too old and worn out to enjoy it. My suggestion is use the day job to feed the family while you create assets that pay passive income. Work towards true independence so when the time comes...and they move work over seas......your going to be ok.....

Whew.....2 rants in one day.....im off to go to the kid rock concert.....later dudes!!!

 

[mikesfastss]

A little info on the 8hr work day. The only thing you can thank henry ford for was the unions, it was assholes like him that made workers realize they needed to stick together.

http://news.discovery.com/history/history-of-the-8-hour-work-day-120501.htm

 

[ASRoff]

Unions and the 8 hour work day...... [URL="http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-factory-workers-get-40-hour-week"[/URL]

 

[WhiteHawk]

The switch here that America can't handle is that White Collar workers are the new Blue Collar workers. They toil in engineering and business factories producing designs and product plans that get sent somewhere else to be built. In 30 years blue collar workers are going to be on equal footing with the service industry. No skills or education, you might as well be bagging groceries. Putting parts on a car won't be paying much better. If the UAW was smart they would realize their future is in organizing white collar unions.

-Geoff

 

[Stalker]

A little info on the 8hr work day. The only thing you can thank henry ford for was the unions, it was assholes like him that made workers realize they needed to stick together.

http://news.discovery.com/history/history-of-the-8-hour-work-day-120501.htm

You do realize that Henry Ford, before the unions was paying his workers double the average of auto manufacturing workers in the 1914? While his beliefs mirrored the entire development of the era (Safety was kind of a side-bar conversation). So you have plenty to thank Ford for. I mean other than completely revolutionizing the way things were built and pushing America to the forefront of the modern world. But keep beating the UAW drum.

 

[4Gas$]

History 101?!?! ya got it wrong....... Henry Ford created the 5 day work week in 1922.....then finalized the 40 hour monday-friday work week in 1926......last time I checked the UAW dident even exist until 1935..... get your history 101 right......

unions were good for improving EH&S but with the way things are now..... (the liticious and government oversite environment that we live in) its in company's best interests to keep workers healthy.

I work in a non-union shop. our safety and quality is WAY better than you could possibly imagine. (you better hope my quality is good if you have ever flown in a 737 or airbus A319-21) I wont say how much Im getting paid....but I will tell you its well above a uaw line worker. But then again I should be paid more just for the amount of responsibility I take. If a uaw worker fucks up you pull over to the side of the road....If i fuck up....well...... Also, I can build the WHOLE engine...not just 4 of the same bolts...... which means I might build a compressor rotor one day.....a turbine the next and machine and balance the rotor set the day after...... we dont get bored at the job.

We take ownership in the business meaning GE says they want X amount of engines for the year. We as a team (there are 4 teams on our engine program made up of 20 individuals) figure out how were going to make our number... we manage our self's we determine who goes on vacation. we cross train on everything because if "joe blow" does not show up to build up a gearbox.....anyone on my team can cover the build.

The job interview is 9 hours long......and we take the 90 trial period SERIOUSLY. you don't cut the mustard on the team...you get booted BY THE TEAM.... not management...... you fuck off and not get your shit done in a reasonable time with excellent quality We the TEAM documents it and sends your ass out the door. basically, we ask you to be an adult and take responsibility.

I was in a couple of unions in the past.....you know what I saw?!?! It protected alot of lazy shitheads that fuck up and create alot of work and late flights at the airlines... I was working at Northwest airlines when September 11th happened....... October 9th I was out the door...... was I mad?!?!? HELL NO! at the end of the day you have to realize that your name isent written on the side of the plane......... I actually smiled as I left....because I knew the high seniority assholes that sat on the couch and slept the whole time while us guys that had less seniority went out to fix planes..... those assholes would now have to do actual work. I saw right away that I had to start a big nest egg and create passive income to hedge against loosing a job in the future. if you don't its your own damn fault for a shitty retirement.

I admit that this country was founded on American ingenuity...... We have since become a country of middle management instead of the powerhouse of production that won 2 world wars...... we have put a college education ABOVE all else to the point where being a mechanic or a technician is going away......there is a shortage of workers for manufacturing jobs here in the us because of it. just check out www.mikeroweworks.com and see....... you can find ALOT of manufacturing jobs still in the U.S. but you have to be willing to go where the work is.....

With this shortage of folks willing to get dirty INSTEAD of pushing paperwork.......the simple fact is your going to need more of us in the future.....your plumbers, electricians, mechanics and builders are starting to become short in supply.


In summary unions were good back in its day but now, with all the government regulations on labor and workplace safety its redundant..... and if you think the jobs that the government provides to monitor working conditions are going away anytime soon......you haven't been paying attention to government waste.....


in the end....you will never get rich trading your time for money.......and if you do work for 40 years in a plant for a fat pension and a decent 401k....your too old and worn out to enjoy it. My suggestion is use the day job to feed the family while you create assets that pay passive income. Work towards true independence so when the time comes...and they move work over seas......your going to be ok.....

Whew.....2 rants in one day.....im off to go to the kid rock concert.....later dudes!!!

X2

 

[mikesfastss]

You do realize that Henry Ford, before the unions was paying his workers double the average of auto manufacturing workers in the 1914? While his beliefs mirrored the entire development of the era (Safety was kind of a side-bar conversation). So you have plenty to thank Ford for. I mean other than completely revolutionizing the way things were built and pushing America to the forefront of the modern world. But keep beating the UAW drum.

the man was a genius but he was also a prick, he only paid double the salary so he could write it off and you only got that raise if you libed to his standards on your time, he sent people out to your home to make sure you were not doing things he didnt like. To me that seems like a dictator. Ill beat the union drum till the day i die, unions have fiught for the things that made my family live nice comfortable life and not need for anything. Im not cut out to be a corporate cock gobbler and have to kiss ass all day to keep a job.

 

[347convert]

A buddy of mine is a contract worker at random ford plants and fixes stamping mistakes and things like that. The UAW issues in his opinion prevent quality from improving. His job is to help the crew learn how to fix the issues so he can get out of there, Him and his helper do 75% of the work and the ford employees are lazy as fuck. They get mad at him for working to fast, he gets harassed and threatened if he goes back to work on time after lunch. If he is in the middle of a repair, they yell at him when its break time and they look down on him when he finishes up what he is working on. One of the guys sleeps for about 2 hours a day after lunch. None of the upper management cares, no one can get rid of anyone because they have either been there tonlong or its a waste of time because they will be back in a few weeks.

He is also not jelious of them, he makes more than they do... and the guy that sleeps must have 30 years in.

 

[DBK]

the man was a genius but he was also a prick, he only paid double the salary so he could write it off and you only got that raise if you libed to his standards on your time, he sent people out to your home to make sure you were not doing things he didnt like. To me that seems like a dictator. Ill beat the union drum till the day i die, unions have fiught for the things that made my family live nice comfortable life and not need for anything. Im not cut out to be a corporate cock gobbler and have to kiss ass all day to keep a job.

Brilliant. :lol:

 

[Anthony]

A buddy of mine is a contract worker at random ford plants and fixes stamping mistakes and things like that. The UAW issues in his opinion prevent quality from improving. His job is to help the crew learn how to fix the issues so he can get out of there, Him and his helper do 75% of the work and the ford employees are lazy as fuck. They get mad at him for working to fast, he gets harassed and threatened if he goes back to work on time after lunch. If he is in the middle of a repair, they yell at him when its break time and they look down on him when he finishes up what he is working on. One of the guys sleeps for about 2 hours a day after lunch. None of the upper management cares, no one can get rid of anyone because they have either been there tonlong or its a waste of time because they will be back in a few weeks.

He is also not jelious of them, he makes more than they do... and the guy that sleeps must have 30 years in.

So management isn't doing their jobs and no one is complaining? Unions protect workers. If mangement does their job. Then the pieces of shit would get fired. End of story. This point cannot be argued the other way.

If a guy is sleeping for 2 hours everyday. Simple cell phone pictures or other documentation of the occurrence and the union would not have a leg to stand on.
First offence: verbal warning
2nd offence: written warning or points. Enough points and fired
3rd offence: 3 days off unpaid
4th offence: termination
Severity of the offence can skip any or all of 1-3

Very simply. If management did their job. Problems would go away

 

[347convert]

So management isn't doing their jobs and no one is complaining? Unions protect workers. If mangement does their job. Then the pieces of shit would get fired. End of story. This point cannot be argued the other way.

If a guy is sleeping for 2 hours everyday. Simple cell phone pictures or other documentation of the occurrence and the union would not have a leg to stand on.
First offence: verbal warning
2nd offence: written warning or points. Enough points and fired
3rd offence: 3 days off unpaid
4th offence: termination
Severity of the offence can skip any or all of 1-3

Very simply. If management did their job. Problems would go away

Agreed... for some reason they just look the other way. My friend was saying caught sleeping is an automatic 30 days. The amount of stuff they get away with is insane.

He is actually documenting a report on all this stuff, as its part of his job, so when ford comes back after he leaves and says why did you not train our workers, he will have it in writing.

Ill see if if i can get pics of the guy sleeping lol.

 

[The Man]

Anybody sees you take that pic, and that dude sleeping gets in trouble or fired because if it, you better find a new place to work yourself....nobody is going rat out a fellow senior union guy.

So management isn't doing their jobs and no one is complaining? Unions protect workers. If mangement does their job. Then the pieces of shit would get fired. End of story. This point cannot be argued the other way.

If a guy is sleeping for 2 hours everyday. Simple cell phone pictures or other documentation of the occurrence and the union would not have a leg to stand on.
First offence: verbal warning
2nd offence: written warning or points. Enough points and fired
3rd offence: 3 days off unpaid
4th offence: termination
Severity of the offence can skip any or all of 1-3

Very simply. If management did their job. Problems would go away

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk 2

 

[347convert]

Anybody sees you take that pic, and that dude sleeping gets in trouble or fired because if it, you better find a new place to work yourself....nobody is going rat out a fellow senior union guy.






Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk 2

I feel like this is the exact issue..

I'll get pics of this dude out like a light lol. I might have to wait for my friend to no longer be working there, we shall see.