Air to Air or Air to Water?

[avbcon12]

I know there have been threads already about this, Ive just spent over an hour searching and read a bunch on it but there are really vague "real world" stats on intake temps, how they measure intake temps and whether or not people have switched from one to another and what the results were.

right now with my aftercooler setup i see no higher than 135* no matter how much boost im making. Thats in hot weather too and down from 220+* with no aftercooler. I am measuring the temps via the stock intake temps sensor in the #5 lower intake, not before the throttle body like others use so there must be some heatsoak in my sensor with that 135* number.

Im looking to try an Air to Air but might not even go ahead with it if it wont help much. My car is street driven with very little open track/ auto-X course time.

thanks

 

[Sean]

How much boost ? What blower ? how many cubes ? Air to Air usually works better in a road car. After a while the coolant for the air to water will start to heat soak and it is tough to get a big enough heat exchanger and pump for long duration use.

 

[LT1Pat]

If it's mostly a street car you should probably got with an A2A. I'm a big fan of A2W though if you want to get the most out of your car at the track. A2W is also good if you don't have enough space in your engine bay to fit the large cooler. If you run a good heat exchanger with the A2W though you can get pretty good results like the OEM setup on the lightning.

 

[avbcon12]

How much boost ? What blower ? how many cubes ? Air to Air usually works better in a road car. After a while the coolant for the air to water will start to heat soak and it is tough to get a big enough heat exchanger and pump for long duration use.

~10 psi right now but looking to up that to 12-14 with a vortech V2 S-trim. 302 Cube engine.

I have the vortech aftercooler on my car now and use 2 heat exchangers (one before and one after the aftercooler) and a lightening circ. pump so thats how im able to drop the temps that much. most others using the same kit never see temps this low (stock setups).

If it's mostly a street car you should probably got with an A2A. I'm a big fan of A2W though if you want to get the most out of your car at the track. A2W is also good if you don't have enough space in your engine bay to fit the large cooler. If you run a good heat exchanger with the A2W though you can get pretty good results like the OEM setup on the lightning.

I see your point, i have never loaded the tank with ice for the track because my car is an open track suspension car (torque arm/ panhard etc) so the ice would melt and not be worth anything after a minute or two on the track. on drag cars, yeah its worth it.

any more insight?

one of the biggest reasons for selling is money. In addition to that I want the same, if not better, intake temps and a cleaner engine bay.

 

[Sean]

I would go with a larger Air to Air for a setup like this. You may pickup some boost to becuase those small aftercoolers tend to be rather restrictive. I think for street use the Temps could actually be lower in most cases.

~10 psi right now but looking to up that to 12-14 with a vortech V2 S-trim. 302 Cube engine.

I have the vortech aftercooler on my car now and use 2 heat exchangers (one before and one after the aftercooler) and a lightening circ. pump so thats how im able to drop the temps that much. most others using the same kit never see temps this low (stock setups).



I see your point, i have never loaded the tank with ice for the track because my car is an open track suspension car (torque arm/ panhard etc) so the ice would melt and not be worth anything after a minute or two on the track. on drag cars, yeah its worth it.

any more insight?

one of the biggest reasons for selling is money. In addition to that I want the same, if not better, intake temps and a cleaner engine bay.

 

[avbcon12]

so you think that the temps at lower speeds (on the street) would still be lower than 135*? The reason I ask is because some people make the argument that A/A coolers need airflow to cool where as even at idle the A/W coolers are pulling heat out from the circulating water.

 

[Sean]

at 20mph the average Air to Air at say 24 x4 x12 is going to see something like 4000cfm worth of airflow. It is going to work fiarly well. Get a big enough intercooler and it will also have a better cycle time. Air to Air can store and dissapate heat just as fast a Water to air.

the real advantage of the water to air is chilled water. However on a road course this really won't work very well. Might get a lap or 2 before the ice runs out. Then you will still need a heat exchanger cloose to the size of the air to air to disapate all that heat.

Not withstanding the heat storage capabilites of water and thermal transfer properties but you still need a large heat exchanger.

Would make sense to simplify the system.

To me in this application air to air wins. Simplicity and imediate thermal transfer. The air to air won't have the thermal storage capability of the water to air but its cycle time being alot faster will work in your favor.

so you think that the temps at lower speeds (on the street) would still be lower than 135*? The reason I ask is because some people make the argument that A/A coolers need airflow to cool where as even at idle the A/W coolers are pulling heat out from the circulating water.

 

[avbcon12]

are those dimensions (24x4x12) the core of overall? That is a huge core from what ive seen. Im reading a book by Corky Bell called Maximum Boost and it lays out how to size piping and core size but doesnt mention much about if too big of an intercooler will hurt.

 

[Sean]

I have yet to see a single downside to a larger intercooler. Those cooler of that size can fit a mustang but you have to toss the fiberglass bumper support or cut the crap out of it. They are avilable on ebay to and cheap.

I would do 3inch piping in aluminum to help shed heat to and from the intercooler and a blow through MAF setup if you do not have one now.

As for heat exchange you can fit alot of intercooler. Yes that is the core size. If your out in the area drop by I can show you how big/small these units really are.

are those dimensions (24x4x12) the core of overall? That is a huge core from what ive seen. Im reading a book by Corky Bell called Maximum Boost and it lays out how to size piping and core size but doesnt mention much about if too big of an intercooler will hurt.

 

[avbcon12]

Ok cool, ill have to stop by at some point.

I know blow-through Mafs have their advantages but does it make that much of a difference? I currently have a draw-through.

If i got blow-through where should I place the blow-off valve? I know before the MAF but I hear some people having "flutter" or chatter problems depending on where they place the BOV and MAF.
thanks

 

[Sean]

Well I can build the MAf right into the charge pipping its not exspensive or difficult. Works better for the Bypass thats for sure.

Ok cool, ill have to stop by at some point.

I know blow-through Mafs have their advantages but does it make that much of a difference? I currently have a draw-through.

thanks

 

[93-bucket]

I thought of this too a while back, It sounded like a good idea until I called vortech to get a straight discharge volute.. I think it was something like 300 bux for them to replace it.. Or I guess you could trade with someone..I opted for the lightning H/E and pump for this year, I haven't driven the car yet to see the results, but I don't think I will be any better off than you with the 2 stock ones... I would almost say stick with what you have just to keep it simple, plus you always have the option of adding ice water to the tank on hot track days... just my .02 cents... good luck!!

 

[jtcstrat]

Well I can build the MAf right into the charge pipping its not exspensive or difficult. Works better for the Bypass thats for sure.

Hey, I will chime in on this subject because I just went through this lol.

I know our cars are different but I had a non intercooled vortech on my 02 gt. (draw through)

We added a 3” FMIC with 3” piping and the vortech mini race bypass. This caused the surging/bucking so after talking to Sean at CARS and Greg, Sean fabbed up a Blow through design and it fixed all the surging/bucking problems.

So I would agree that it makes it a lot easier to convert to blow through. Sean does some great work. He will take care of ya!

 

[avbcon12]

Well I can build the MAf right into the charge pipping its not exspensive or difficult. Works better for the Bypass thats for sure.

and use my sensor? I thought they were calibrated for draw/ blow specifically.

I thought of this too a while back, It sounded like a good idea until I called vortech to get a straight discharge volute.. I think it was something like 300 bux for them to replace it.. Or I guess you could trade with someone..I opted for the lightning H/E and pump for this year, I haven't driven the car yet to see the results, but I don't think I will be any better off than you with the 2 stock ones... I would almost say stick with what you have just to keep it simple, plus you always have the option of adding ice water to the tank on hot track days... just my .02 cents... good luck!!

thanks, the 2 setrab heat exchangers work very well and draw out a lot of heat BUT in terms of keeping it simple an A/A is by far less complicated. I talked to vortech too and they wanted something like $350 for the polished one but I was thinking of cutting the curve off mine and Tig'n a new straight on mine. Vortech claims each volute is made to clearance the impellers specific to each blower but this I know is not true. I have had many friends buy used straight volutes on ebay and swap them with no problems. So if I remove my volute Im fairly certain I can make it straight if I cant find one on ebay.

Having 2 H/E helps a lot with not heat soaking the reservoir. after the water goes through the aftercooler its pretty damn hot and when it sits in the tank it will heat all the water up like nothing else. Then the single H/E has to work even hard to pull the heat out.

Hey, I will chime in on this subject because I just went through this lol.

I know our cars are different but I had a non intercooled vortech on my 02 gt. (draw through)

We added a 3” FMIC with 3” piping and the vortech mini race bypass. This caused the surging/bucking so after talking to Sean at CARS and Greg, Sean fabbed up a Blow through design and it fixed all the surging/bucking problems.

So I would agree that it makes it a lot easier to convert to blow through. Sean does some great work. He will take care of ya!

thanks! where is your MAF located in relation to the BOV?

 

[Sean]

ask JCstrat for pictures of his setup.

and use my sensor? I thought they were calibrated for draw/ blow specifically.



thanks, the 2 setrab heat exchangers work very well and draw out a lot of heat BUT in terms of keeping it simple an A/A is by far less complicated. I talked to vortech too and they wanted something like $350 for the polished one but I was thinking of cutting the curve off mine and Tig'n a new straight on mine. Vortech claims each volute is made to clearance the impellers specific to each blower but this I know is not true. I have had many friends buy used straight volutes on ebay and swap them with no problems. So if I remove my volute Im fairly certain I can make it straight if I cant find one on ebay.




thanks! where is your MAF located in relation to the BOV?

 

[jtcstrat]

its kinda hard to describe, but i can show you some pics, or if you are around the waterford area or at Seans shop you can give me a call and i can show you the car in person. I live really close to Seans shop

 

[avbcon12]

yeah, post some pics if you can. Did Sean use your MAF electronics?

thanks

 

[jtcstrat]

yeah, post some pics if you can. Did Sean use your MAF electronics?

thanks

MAF electronics? you lost me on that one lol

Im re using my stock maf, with a Diablosport MAFIa


It wont be till later for the pics because my GF is at work and its her camera, she has it on her lol. But if you wanna see it in person let me know, i have some time tonight. Otherwise i will get pics up later

 

[avbcon12]

Im in East Lansing this weekend so I wont be able to stop by but thanks. Pics later will do

As for MAF electronics... you can remove the electronics from the housings and I didnt know if he did that and fabbed up a tube to put them in for a blow-through setup. It sounds like he did that and used the MAFIA to tune it...

I have a PMS but it doesnt give any adjustment for MAF correction so I wonder if this is possible for me without buying a MAFIA or something like it, or a new blow through MAF.

 

[Sean]

Yes. We are going to rescale with a MAFia. better signal to noise ratio in a smaller pipe. You should switch to the 99up MAF. better metering and it repackages well. The earlier MAF would require a custom sample tube. However you will need to recalibrate the pcm due to the change in the MAF transfer function. You could always sell the PMS and get a custom chip made up.

yeah, post some pics if you can. Did Sean use your MAF electronics?

thanks