So what are we going to argue about now?

[loosenut]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a...qcL3kgk4jk0jhRGvG-rELl8Fp18nbY4-hjkEgERMtscIk


Hellcat Production Is Sadly Going to End in 2023:


Report

Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis told Motor Authority that production of the supercharged 6.2-liter V-8 will end and be replaced by its upcoming eMuscle EVs.
By Connor Hoffman
Nov 22, 2021


Dodge is ending production of the Hellcat in 2023, according to a report from Motor Authority. A Stellantis spokesperson contacted by Car and Driver declined to comment.
The Hellcat supercharged 6.2-liter V-8 makes anywhere from 702 to 840 horsepower in cars such as the Challenger and Charger SRT Hellcats.
Dodge is preparing an electric muscle car for 2024, and a concept will be revealed next year.

Dodge is preparing to launch an electric muscle car for 2024 under what it's calling eMuscle, and a concept car will be revealed next year. As if that news was hard enough for diehard muscle car fans, Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis confirmed to Motor Authority that production of its Hellcat supercharged V-8 will end the year before the electric car arrives.
2024 dodge electric muscle car
Dodge eMuscle teaser. Dodge

The Hellcat supercharged 6.2-liter Hemi V-8 engine makes anywhere from 702 to 840 horsepower and has been found in models such as the Dodge Challenger, Charger, and Durango SRT Hellcats (though only in the three-row SUV for one model year) as well as the Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk and Challenger SRT Demon. Though the aforementioned report has no mention of the Ram 1500 TRX, we reached out to a Ram spokesperson who said "no comment." Funny, that's exactly how we feel.


Early next year Dodge will show its electric muscle car concept and reveal some specs on the new model. Teaser photos released this summer show the concept's appropriately retro shape, though it's still unclear if both two- and four-door models will be available like the Challenger and Charger. Kuniskis also said to expect a new plug-in hybrid model, which could be referring to the rumored Hornet crossover. There were even rumors of Chevy replacing the Camaro with an electric sedan.

Well, you have two years left to buy a Hellcat, which currently starts at $62,975 for the Challenger SRT Hellcat. We won't let the Hellcat's rambunctious whine of its supercharger be forgotten by the whispering whir of electric motors.

 

[dline]

Darn best cars are going away

 

[1fstfox]

Tesla has shown that from a performance viewpoint, electric is hard to beat (up to a certain power number). But I'm still not on board from a "save the planet" view.

 

[mustangmike6996]

Having driven many different EV platforms (production and prototype), they all perform well and are very fast. Here are my complaints:

They don't capture a real, fun, driving experience. They are fast, they have a very low center of gravity so they handle well but they feel like a video game.

They're all designed like they are trying to look futuristic. Giant LED tail lamp across the entire trunk, blue accents everywhere (similar to the green leaf craze of the mid 2000s-2015 era), giant "grille" but its not a grille and looks like a shitty platidip or aftermarket job.

They have too many damn screens. Give me normal gauges and buttons/knobs for HVAC/Stereo.

The range/performance is getting better as time passes. The fact that I can't drive up north and back (like I can in my truck on 1 tank of fuel) is prohibitive to me. I would consider an EV if I could make a 300-400 mile trip. I was thinking back to when I was stationed in NC and drove 12-14 hours back to MI (like 950 miles)... I would have had to have stopped about 4 times and charged which would have added about an hour to the trip, give or take.

Are they greener, not really. The longer an ICE vehicle is registered/in service the more of a carbon footprint it leaves. The mining of battery minerals is horrible for the environment but so is pumping crude oil and transporting it. This is more of an open-ended topic, because companies are trying to go greener (tax incentives and public advertising of how they care).

Cost, they cost more initially but monthly maintenance is lower. Depending on how/where you charge it, it can still be expensive (cheaper than an ICE vehicle). Many companies (like mine) offer charging, free to employees. I have a coworker with a Mach-E, he loves it, he charges it at work for free, it's great.... for now.

Many people do not have garages or even park close to their actual house. So if you live in a very cold climate, you are supposed to plug your car in overnight so the coolant can circulate to keep the batteries from freezing/experiencing cold related damages which drastically shortens life.

With all that said, Ford came out with the E-Luminator, which is awesome and relatively cheap. Once you add the cost of a battery/controller etc, you are right at 12-15k for a powerplant plus labor for install and time to actually get it running. I would consider doing an EV swap on my 1951 F1 or maybe my 1969 Mustang eventually as a fun, non daily driver car.

Lastly, if I was serious about making an EV swap, I would highly consider going solar at my house to offset the overall charging cost and imminent power outages due to grid overload. I don't think our power grid will be upgraded as fast as the EV push is happening.

 

[wrath]

So, I'm a long-time GM fan. Large portion of the reason is family worked there. I also like the portability of parts and simple tools.

The electric cars are mostly Sum Ting Rong and Feng Poo sourced parts assembled together to make a glorified appliance to get people from Point A to Point B. The electric cars are disposable. Tesla knows that they are a software company that makes cars. And it shows. The cars are cheap, hideous, and uncomfortable. But they drive decent and they have a nice battery.

I suspect as we continue to turn cars into appliances, we will see a lot of car manufacturers disappear. There will be winners and losers based on who can write the best contracts. There will be a lot of losers due to IP theft.

There will be differences, sure. But we largely just put different lipstick on the pig. Most microwaves are now made by a company call Midea. There are some outliers, like Panasonic, that still make their own in some random factory that isn't Midea. But for the most part it might have some different doors, different paint, and stylized text on the buttons but under the pot metal covers it's all Sum Ting Rong and Feng Poo parts. Hell, half the companies don't even design most of their parts anymore. Everyone has the same interior and exterior mirrors... instrument panels keep looking similar because... they come from the same place designed by the same people.

In the past, car companies made a handful of vehicles people wanted to get them in the door... and when they got there they bought a minivan or a strip model truck. Right now, there is no plan to get people in the door. There is no Plymouth Prowler. There is no Chevrolet SSR. There is no slick marketing to go with those want vs need vehicles. There is nothing but boring electric vehicles whose customization are limited to what stickers you can put on them. They are the anti-individuality and anti-independence movement.

This is fine for the likes of Honda, Subaru, and Toyota. They make appliances. They are the most boring and limited appliances on the road. And they're great at making them. It is unlikely that Subaru will survive.

As an Old millennial, the car companies keep whiffing and confusing the noise from the crowd with cheers from a home run. Soon, as options disappear, we'll just want to shop for cars on Amazon comparing specifications and reviews. The excitement about spending a small fortune is gone where you would take a vacation day or two to drive around town trying different cars and the day you pick up your car is an event. At that point, all is lost for all but the strongest car companies. Because a pile of bad Amazon reviews isn't going to be offset by -13% from MSRP because everyone knows that MSRP is a bullshit number. After a while, car companies will only build what sells and they will have to compete on price only. Which will slaughter most of them. And they won't sell 2-3 of the same brand to the same household because they needed a truck, a people hauler, and a grocery getter. They will sell that family one of those and won't be able to rely on making up some cost on less profitable models. Soon everything will be as miserably boring as a Ford Escape or a Subaru Ascent.

Lastly, car sales will dwindle. This is because as cars enter the "mature" state of being an appliance to get them from point A to point B, people will run them until they don't work... just like their microwave. However, they will still expect them to be cheaply repaired like a current ICE vehicle but without the preventative maintenance. So at this point, they will rely on collisions to force the purchase of new vehicles, but technology will change that also. The only way they have a chance, is if Right to Repair gets revoked again. But at that point, those who don't allow it will lose out. Because if you look at the Apple model where unless there is a noteworthy reason to "upgrade" to a new device, people expect their device to be updated via software for free forever. And like Apple, if you do a planned obsolescence there will be a revolt.

 

[sofa king]

I'm still not a fan of taking the engine away, yet adding engine sounds to the speakers. Doesn't really compute in my peanut of a brain...

 

[WhiteHawk]

I think what is happening to the Hellcat is going to happen across the Big 3. I have no inside info on this, but I expect the Mustang and Camaro to make a similar announcement soon. When I bought my 2016 Camaro, I planned on keeping it six years. Now, I am going to keep it a little longer and buy a Camaro the last year they make it.

I would suggest that everyone who has a car they love - Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, even Corvette - do the same thing. This generation we are in of performance cars may very well be the last ,and it is easily the BEST these cars have ever been in terms of performance. Don't kick yourself in 10 years because you didn't buy that car that will never be made again. Gasoline is going to be around a lot longer than these cars will, that is for sure.

-Geoff

 

[WhiteHawk]

Many people do not have garages or even park close to their actual house. So if you live in a very cold climate, you are supposed to plug your car in overnight so the coolant can circulate to keep the batteries from freezing/experiencing cold related damages which drastically shortens life.

You bring up a point here which NOBODY is talking about. There are what, 300 million-ish vehicles on the road right now? Even if the US can put out 10 million EV's a year, it is going to take ~30 years to replace the fleet, but the OEM's are talking 10 years to stop selling gas vehicles. What are Regular Joes living in cities and apartments going to do in 10 years when you can't even BUY a gasoline vehicle anymore?

It seems like GM Ford and Chrysler are just walking away from customers. I have no doubt that cheap gasoline powered cars will start pouring in from China at some point. I think the whole plan is just short sighted. But then again, Rivian is worth more than GM or Ford, so what do I know?

-Geoff

 

[Killjoy]

In the past, car companies made a handful of vehicles people wanted to get them in the door... and when they got there they bought a minivan or a strip model truck. Right now, there is no plan to get people in the door. There is no Plymouth Prowler. There is no Chevrolet SSR. There is no slick marketing to go with those want vs need vehicles.

Agree. I think the c8 Corvette is a good exception... base stingray was exciting & they just announced the c8 z06, but more generally I see your point. On the marketing side, I think the Big 3 need to look at Tesla's model (as much as it pains me to say that) WRT spending $0 on a marketing department, TV commercials and the like. If your product is good and exciting enough, word of mouth and press is enough marketing to saturate your supply/demand needs. You really only need marketing to sell POS products at a discount to people who otherwise wouldn't consider buying that POS other than the discounted price. Imagine if GM or Ford could take tens or hundreds of millions of dollars they spend on marketing and re-invest into the product development and part quality.

I generally agree with most of your other points too.

This is fine for the likes of Honda, Subaru, and Toyota. They make appliances. They are the most boring and limited appliances on the road. And they're great at making them. It is unlikely that Subaru will survive.

As an Old millennial, the car companies keep whiffing and confusing the noise from the crowd with cheers from a home run. Soon, as options disappear, we'll just want to shop for cars on Amazon comparing specifications and reviews. The excitement about spending a small fortune is gone where you would take a vacation day or two to drive around town trying different cars and the day you pick up your car is an event. At that point, all is lost for all but the strongest car companies. Because a pile of bad Amazon reviews isn't going to be offset by -13% from MSRP because everyone knows that MSRP is a bullshit number. After a while, car companies will only build what sells and they will have to compete on price only. Which will slaughter most of them. And they won't sell 2-3 of the same brand to the same household because they needed a truck, a people hauler, and a grocery getter. They will sell that family one of those and won't be able to rely on making up some cost on less profitable models. Soon everything will be as miserably boring as a Ford Escape or a Subaru Ascent.

You'd also have to be blind not to see the impending China invasion of the US EV industry sometime in the next few years. It's going to be like the early 1980's Japanese invasion and decimation of the US auto industry. Probably worse job-wise as I doubt any final assembly will be done in the US. Those companies are still ramping up their operations, product offerings, etc... but once ready, the only thing keeping them at bay is the US Government... and while the current 25% China tariff may impede some movement, you also need to look at the current USG administration and decide how strongly they will stand their ground to defend the domestic auto industry. Remember, the big bad orange dude is the one who put the current China tariff in place... so the old senile team would probably construe removing that tariff as a 'win' in our current political environment. Imagine a Tesla for half the price. These companies are already entering the European markets under their own brands (not badged as traditional OEM but made in China). And they meet European car regulations and such. It's only a matter of time, and fighting it means you're fighting globalization. I do get worried about Tesla's success and what it may mean to the Big 3 if they don't pull their heads out of their asses and start making the hard decisions to compete with these start ups (antiquated & hated dealership model, UAW, lots of legacy structural cost, Big 3 reputation outside of the Midwest)... but I'm even more worried about the China invasion.

Want to talk about IP theft? How many of the traditional OEMs are manufacturing in China today? All that IP is out the window. That includes Tesla.

I would suggest that everyone who has a car they love - Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, even Corvette - do the same thing. This generation we are in of performance cars may very well be the last ,and it is easily the BEST these cars have ever been in terms of performance. Don't kick yourself in 10 years because you didn't buy that car that will never be made again. Gasoline is going to be around a lot longer than these cars will, that is for sure.

Agreed. Although I also (maybe silly-ly) worry about the availability of 93 octane gasoline in 2035 or so. Do I want to spend $100k on a 2025 c8 z06 (as you suggest) to only not be able to get gas for it in 2035? Probably unfounded concerns, but certainly a risk as it seems ICE auto days are numbered.

 

[WhiteHawk]

Agreed. Although I also (maybe silly-ly) worry about the availability of 93 octane gasoline in 2035 or so. Do I want to spend $100k on a 2025 c8 z06 (as you suggest) to only not be able to get gas for it in 2035? Probably unfounded concerns, but certainly a risk as it seems ICE auto days are numbered.

That is my point though, there HAS to be gasoline available for AT LEAST 30 years because they can't replace the fleet any faster. So get the car of your dreams before you can't get it anymore!

I am actually not that concerned about EV's from China. China is in a bigger boom than the US right now. I doubt they will meet their own internal capacity for a decade at least with EV's. They might ship their high end stuff here for the big $$$$, but for now, I think the mainstream Regular Joe stuff is a long way off.

 

[wickettoby1]

Agree. I think the c8 Corvette is a good exception... base stingray was exciting & they just announced the c8 z06, but more generally I see your point. On the marketing side, I think the Big 3 need to look at Tesla's model (as much as it pains me to say that) WRT spending $0 on a marketing department, TV commercials and the like. If your product is good and exciting enough, word of mouth and press is enough marketing to saturate your supply/demand needs. You really only need marketing to sell POS products at a discount to people who otherwise wouldn't consider buying that POS other than the discounted price. Imagine if GM or Ford could take tens or hundreds of millions of dollars they spend on marketing and re-invest into the product development and part quality.

I generally agree with most of your other points too.


You'd also have to be blind not to see the impending China invasion of the US EV industry sometime in the next few years. It's going to be like the early 1980's Japanese invasion and decimation of the US auto industry. Probably worse job-wise as I doubt any final assembly will be done in the US. Those companies are still ramping up their operations, product offerings, etc... but once ready, the only thing keeping them at bay is the US Government... and while the current 25% China tariff may impede some movement, you also need to look at the current USG administration and decide how strongly they will stand their ground to defend the domestic auto industry. Remember, the big bad orange dude is the one who put the current China tariff in place... so the old senile team would probably construe removing that tariff as a 'win' in our current political environment. Imagine a Tesla for half the price. These companies are already entering the European markets under their own brands (not badged as traditional OEM but made in China). And they meet European car regulations and such. It's only a matter of time, and fighting it means you're fighting globalization. I do get worried about Tesla's success and what it may mean to the Big 3 if they don't pull their heads out of their asses and start making the hard decisions to compete with these start ups (antiquated & hated dealership model, UAW, lots of legacy structural cost, Big 3 reputation outside of the Midwest)... but I'm even more worried about the China invasion.

Want to talk about IP theft? How many of the traditional OEMs are manufacturing in China today? All that IP is out the window. That includes Tesla.


Agreed. Although I also (maybe silly-ly) worry about the availability of 93 octane gasoline in 2035 or so. Do I want to spend $100k on a 2025 c8 z06 (as you suggest) to only not be able to get gas for it in 2035? Probably unfounded concerns, but certainly a risk as it seems ICE auto days are numbered.

I think of the ICE just like I do the 2nd amendment, an ICE is useless without fuel just like a gun is useless without ammo. If the powers at be want to force the people in a specific direction they will try.

 

[loosenut]

I think what is happening to the Hellcat is going to happen across the Big 3. I have no inside info on this, but I expect the Mustang and Camaro to make a similar announcement soon. When I bought my 2016 Camaro, I planned on keeping it six years. Now, I am going to keep it a little longer and buy a Camaro the last year they make it.

I would suggest that everyone who has a car they love - Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, even Corvette - do the same thing. This generation we are in of performance cars may very well be the last ,and it is easily the BEST these cars have ever been in terms of performance. Don't kick yourself in 10 years because you didn't buy that car that will never be made again. Gasoline is going to be around a lot longer than these cars will, that is for sure.

-Geoff

When my sister picked up the little Buick SUV for my Niece, he said that the 6.2 is being cut next year.

 

[derbydad276]

Don't be sad that it's over ....
Be Happy that it Happened

I though it was over 40 years ago when they started putting 305's in Z28's

 

[mustangmike6996]

I think of the ICE just like I do the 2nd amendment, an ICE is useless without fuel just like a gun is useless without ammo. If the powers at be want to force the people in a specific direction they will try.

Time to start growing some corn and distilling my own ICE fuel. haha