MM Road Racing Group?

K

Killjoy

Forum Member
Hey Guys - I'm considering getting into weekend road racing as a hobby. I've never participated or spectated one before. I know there is a track up in Waterford (Waterford Hills?), and I'm sure there's others in the metro area. Does anyone here road race for fun on the weekends?

Most of the posts I see here are 1320' drag racing - does MM have a local road racing group affiliation?
Also looking for some insight on cost & things to know. Someone to lay it out for me.

The car I currently have is a convertible, and from some of the initial research I've done so far, appears that I'd need a cage/roll bar per SCCA. And that spawns a whole 'nother set of questions, since I think I'd prefer to try road racing in a 'slower' novice group (open track) w/o rollbar to see how much I like it, then decide if I want to go all in or not. Truth be told, it'd probably be easier to just sell the convertible and buy another car. I just don't want to drop $3-4k in the car for the roll bar and 5 point harness, just to find out it's not for me.

Anyway - curious if we have any road racers here, and if they could share some insights for newbie.
 
You have to hook up with 3 balls racing. There's a few people on here that are veteran drivers with that group (scooter70 is one of them that comes to mind)

Check out their website 3ballsracing.com for event info. I got hooked a couple years ago after being a 1/4 driver for years. Turning left and right is a ton of fun :)
 
Auto-crossing (cones in a parking lot - no wheel to wheel racing) is a good stepping stone to track days. There are numerous groups that run auto-x in Metro Detroit. The main one is Detroit Region Chapter of SCCA and then there is the NWOR SCCA group which is northwest Ohio and some of there events are actually closer than Detroit SCCA. Some groups even do auto-x on actual road courses. They just set up a few cones on the track in strategic places.

As for road courses, there is Waterford Hills like you mentioned, Grattan Raceway northeast of Grand Rapids, and Gingerman just west of Kalamazoo. I've heard Gingerman is the best course for novices to get used to track racing. Grattan has a infamous "jump corner" which is a blind downhill corner that people supposedly gotten air on and then have to slam on the brakes and turn.
 
www.3ballsracing.com

Grattan this weekend is sold out but we're there 3 more weekends this summer. We also go to MidOhio (June 6th) as well as the new M1 Concours track in August.

As for the convertible, I believe that Grattan is ok with it. You'll have to check with Headball (he's BB69 on MM) for confirmation.

Once you go to open track days (HPDE... not racing) you'll never go back to the 1320 again. AutoX is ok but you'll spend hours sitting around in the sun all day to get a total of a few minutes of actual track time. With HPDEs, you'll get 4-5 (maybe 6) twenty minute sessions on track per day.

Post up any additional questions and we'll see if we can get them answered.

-Matt
 
HPDEs are the best. You will love it. As Scooter said you spend too much time sitting around at Auto-x events, but it's still worth doing a time or two and while you're sitting around is a good time to talk to people and learn.

I want to do one with my Scat Pack Challenger. I'm sure it will be a real handful compared to my old C5!
 
So my first question was exactly what I think you guys are already steering me toward -- what organization, racing class, etc. would be best for me to start in? When I first started looking, I landed on the SCCA Solo & Solo II classes, but now that I look harder, I believe that is AutoX -- which I'm not knocking, but doing tight loops ad nauseam in a parking lot doesn't really turn me on. A quick google seems to show HPDE as not racing, but organized performance driving w/ passing under certain conditions for certain experience levels - which is probably what I am looking for. So, assuming HPDE is for me, do I need to go join some association (SCCA?), or are the HPDE events all run by local private clubs that could care less about national memberships?

Do people normally stay in HPDE forever, or is it simply an entry into a racing class for most?
Are most people participating in HPDE running OEM stock street legal vehicles? Am I gonna get blown out by mod'd Z06s and the like since it doesn't appear that HPDE groups cars.

I have a stock '08 Sky Redline.
- How do I figure out what HPDEs I can run w/o modifications? (e.g. stock seat belt, no roll bar, etc.)
- If I do need a 5-point harness and roll bar, I think I'd lean towards selling the Sky and picking up a used C5/C6 hardtop (or do those need cages too for the road racing classes?).

Do you guys drive what you race to the track, or trailer the car there? (how do you handle break downs?)
How fast are you guys going through tires & brakes?
How much is the track fee usually?


I'm thinking about a man-cation trip to Vegas this year to take a Ron Fellows Corvette driving class.
Also would like the HDPE or whatever I get into to prep for an eventual trip to Nürburgring.
 
I'm going to have to grab a beer and then start writing a book for a reply.

You're asking all the right questions. The quick answer that I'll give you right now is that you can get anything you want out of HPDE events.

Sent from my S6.
 
I ran at Waterford for 4 years and it was a absolute blast. Nothing like racing with 30 or 40 friends. The cheapest group to get into is Improved Touring. Get a cheap car and run in ITB or ITC. You can get a Miata and run in Spec Miata. No offense, but leave the Sky for the street. I ran a Suzuki Swift GTi in ITB and had a blast. I'm building a Suzuki Swift GA (8V 1.3L) to run in ITC and H Production.

If you are going to race with other people, you want a car you can wad up into a ball and walk away from. This means wrecking the car won't effect your state of mind, and that you can just plain walk away from. It also means getting a car you can get parts for. Get a Honda, Mazda or something similar. Or stick with Autocross.

Go check out a race at Waterford. Get a Paddock Pass and check out the cars. Towards the end of the season cars will come up for sale. This is the cheapest way to go.

DrivewayRacecar-1.jpg
 
Yea, that's another point of deliberation I have. My Sky is nice. And while I trust myself to not push it to the point of wrecking it, I'm much less trusting of others in competitive side by side racing. I think that's where the HPDE appeals. Honestly, I'd rather race against myself (lap times) than others... but not sure that exists, or is likely pretty costly.
 
Killjoy said:
So my first question was exactly what I think you guys are already steering me toward -- what organization, racing class, etc. would be best for me to start in? When I first started looking, I landed on the SCCA Solo & Solo II classes, but now that I look harder, I believe that is AutoX -- which I'm not knocking, but doing tight loops ad nauseam in a parking lot doesn't really turn me on. A quick google seems to show HPDE as not racing, but organized performance driving w/ passing under certain conditions for certain experience levels - which is probably what I am looking for. So, assuming HPDE is for me, do I need to go join some association (SCCA?), or are the HPDE events all run by local private clubs that could care less about national memberships?
Click to expand...

SCCA and NASA are national organizations that offer everything from HPDE groups through "pro" wheel-to-wheel racing. The level of instruction that you would receive at these events is higher than that of a small organization like 3Balls but not the same as a professional training organization like Skip Barber, Bondurant, Ron Fellows, etc. You will find that they are more strict regarding "rules" and car prep and you'll get less track time with SCCA/NASA vs 3Balls.

Killjoy said:
Do people normally stay in HPDE forever, or is it simply an entry into a racing class for most?
Are most people participating in HPDE running OEM stock street legal vehicles? Am I gonna get blown out by mod'd Z06s and the like since it doesn't appear that HPDE groups cars.
Click to expand...

HPDE can be a stepping stone to wheel-to-wheel racing or it can be your end game. It's all up to you and what you want to do. For me, I'm happy just turning laps (sometimes in anger) and hanging out at the track with friends. The competition aspect of it isn't what I'm out there for. But for those who want to run W2W, HPDE can be a great place to start. You may go in thinking that you want to "race" but find out that open track events are more to your liking.

Cars are grouped by driver experience level. You may be grouped with modded Z06s but they will be driven poorly by inexperienced drivers. We run 4 groups: Group 1 is instructors and the most experienced drivers. Group 4 is newbies with less than a few days of track experience.


Killjoy said:
I have a stock '08 Sky Redline.
- How do I figure out what HPDEs I can run w/o modifications? (e.g. stock seat belt, no roll bar, etc.)
- If I do need a 5-point harness and roll bar, I think I'd lean towards selling the Sky and picking up a used C5/C6 hardtop (or do those need cages too for the road racing classes?).
Click to expand...

100% stock is the preferred setup for your first few events. Change the brake fluid to a high temp one and make sure that brake pads and tires are good. As long as the car is mechanically sound you shouldn't run into any issues until you really start pushing it, which you won't be doing for the first few events. This will also limit the amount of money that you need to spend to get started, in case you decide that it's really not for you. (Though that hardly ever happens... once you go to a couple of events you'll be hooked.)

Killjoy said:
Do you guys drive what you race to the track, or trailer the car there? (how do you handle break downs?)
How fast are you guys going through tires & brakes?
How much is the track fee usually?
Click to expand...

It's probably 50/50 on people who trailer vs drive to the track. It's relatively rare that people who drive there cannot drive it home. When it has happened, someone has either stepped up and offered to trailer the person's car home or AAA can get you home. Personally, I trailer my car (and end up hauling parts/tires/fuel/etc for my friends who drive their cars out) and then sleep inside the trailer.

I go through a set and a half of "scrub" slicks and a set of brake pads per season. Your usage will be highly dependent on you, your car, and the quality of parts that you're using.

For costs, it varies by organization and track. As an example 3BallsRacing charges $230 for a single day and $410 for two days at Grattan. MidOhio is $285 for the day. I'm not sure what a NASA weekend costs but I'm sure it's more.

Killjoy said:
I'm thinking about a man-cation trip to Vegas this year to take a Ron Fellows Corvette driving class.
Also would like the HDPE or whatever I get into to prep for an eventual trip to Nürburgring.
Click to expand...

I've heard good things about the Fellows school. There are also schools like Skip Barber that operate at many tracks throughout the country.

I hope that helps get you started. If you're free this weekend, take a ride out to Grattan and just look around. Unfortunately I won't be there otherwise I'd show you around and even take you for a ride on track.

Here's the event page on the 3Balls site: http://www.3ballsracing.com/events/event/48/Grattan-Saturday-May-28--2016

-Matt
 
CruisnCobra said:
Auto-crossing (cones in a parking lot - no wheel to wheel racing) is a good stepping stone to track days. There are numerous groups that run auto-x in Metro Detroit. The main one is Detroit Region Chapter of SCCA and then there is the NWOR SCCA group which is northwest Ohio and some of there events are actually closer than Detroit SCCA. Some groups even do auto-x on actual road courses. They just set up a few cones on the track in strategic places.

As for road courses, there is Waterford Hills like you mentioned, Grattan Raceway northeast of Grand Rapids, and Gingerman just west of Kalamazoo. I've heard Gingerman is the best course for novices to get used to track racing. Grattan has a infamous "jump corner" which is a blind downhill corner that people supposedly gotten air on and then have to slam on the brakes and turn.
Click to expand...

Grattan is a fun track...and yes, many get air in that spot. :nod: And many don't make the right-hander immediately after.

I used to run open track events with the Motor City Region Shelby Club and they also welcomed any brand of vehicle. Just another possibility as they would routinely run Waterford twice a year if the O.P. wanted to stay local to start.
 
Scooter covered it pretty thoroughly.

I drive my car to the track.

On the brakes, fluid is a must, pads for your car for a beginner are somewhat optional. But honestly, by the end of the track day you are likely going to need to replace your stock street pads anyway so you might as well get a pad that will be happier on the track beforehand.

As was stated, Gingerman in South Haven is the most beginner friendly track around and they even made some changes this year to make it more so. I've ridden in a car that has been way off track without hitting anything. I've blown the last turn braking zone and straight lined to pit road rather than risking the last corner before. It's pretty hard to fuck up Gingerman bad enough to hurt your car.
 
OK, so I'm 'in'. I'll drop an email to Headball to see what locations he thinks the Sky will be allowed in stock. M1 Concourse plan looks awesome & Waterford is also close by, but I'd be willing to do the GR area courses too.

Brake fluid swap is no problem. Depending on what Headball says, I'm sitting here wondering how far I want to get into the Sky for road racing vs. just moving to something more fitting - like a C5/C6. The Sky still has the original GY Eagle F1s, now pushing 8 years old (low miles), so probably should be looking at some track tires. There's also a GM (which I assume would keep me 'stock' if I ever moved on to racing) & aftermarket tune available. Just don't want to sink $2k into the car now, only to wind up selling it if I can't run it anywhere, or find that I want to step up anyway...
 
Tires...I used BF Goodrich Radial T/A R1's. The hot DOT tires are now Hoosiers and they come in a variety of sizes. The brakes fluid I used was DOT 3 fluid for Ford Heavy Duty trucks. Raybestos makes a good HD street pad. From week one to week two, the brake change was enough to cut 2 seconds a lap at Waterford. Better pads will cut down your times even more.

Why is spending money on a Corvette more fitting? You can still put a C5/C6 into a tire wall. Go price a Corvette hood. If you want competition read the rules for the class you want to run in. Unless you are running Showroom Stock or running some other kind of 'Stock' class, you will not be winner without max modifications for a given class. This is true in Auto Cross or Road Racing.
 
Don't get me wrong, I love my Sky. But if the convertible aspect turns into being an every trip drama of "whether I can run it at track X without a roll bar", that's going to get old quick. I honestly can't see me putting a cage in it - it's too nice (< 25k miles). Plus even with the GM tune ($600), it's still only 290hp/340tq vs. a 400-600hp 'vette, not to mention suspension improvements.

We'll see what Headball says...
 
This is the reason I like IT. It's real wheel-to-wheel racing. There car be as many as 30-40 cars on the track with you at the same time. All these cars run at approximately the same speed give or take. How fast you go and how competitive you are is up to you. Did you get the right car? Did you get it set up right? Is it you or the car when you find out you're not any better than mid-pack? Can you run in the rain? It can be as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be.

Around 2000 or so, there was a place in Georgia that would build you a turn-key Gen II RX-7 built to the edge of the rules to run in ITS. The cost? $60,000! When the new owner could qualify no better than, let's say 6th or 7th, the guys who build the car would put it on the pole. Sometimes it's you!

Any group that's competitive will require a cage in a Sky. Frankly, pushing an open car on the track without a cage is stupid. Running a closed car on a track without a cage is stupid. The local Corvette club runs a solo at Waterford every July 4th weekend. About 15 years ago, a kid in a modified Neon rolled his toy into a ball. He was wearing a belt set up that keep him upright in his car and he was wearing a helmet. The car had no cage. The roof came down on his head. He's lucky he's not driving a wheel chair now. A driver during the Runoffs at Road Atlanta flipped his Mazda MX-3 on the front straight. His cage went thru the floor. He still races...with hand controls. Even a Corvette will need a cage.

Find out the rules for the class you want to run. SCCA.org has the GCR (General Competition Rules) on the website. They also list what cars are eligible and what modifications are allowed. Waterford runs by SCCA rules.

The BMW Club does not discriminate. They usually will have an open track day at MIS. It's run what you brung. Even your Sky will be welcome. BUT, you have to be a member. You'll be considered an amateur for few events. They look at this as a Driver's School. After 5 or 6 events, they might move you up to Group 2 and upwards depending on driver's skill and lap times.
 
Talking about competition with someone that is trying to get their feet wet is putting the cart so far before the horse.

There used to be some off the shelf from the part store brake fluids that were pretty decent. They've all been changed in formula though. I ran the Ford fluid, dry boiling point is down 75 degrees F from where it used to be. Same with the Valvoline fluid. DOT 4 from a part store is like $8 a liter or you can go to any area S&G Imports and get ATE Type 200 for $12. $4 for a real fluid with a much higher boiling point is really a no brainer. You can't even find it online that cheap, it's a great deal for a fluid that will work for more than a beginner. There are several S&G's around, Berkley, Farmington, Waterford, one on Groesbeck, Ann Arbor, maybe a couple more. Brake fluid is also an extremely over looked maintenance item, something you should probably be changing out at the age of your car even if you aren't going to the track.

A Sky is a very capable car. Corner speeds inline with what a Vette is capable of, 2800 lbs and 290 HP will be great fun on track. Light weight and lower power are much easier on your wallet. Much less strain and wear on tires and brakes. I really don't think you'll have an issue running HPDE with a vert without a bar but I could be wrong.

As far as tires go, if yours aren't showing any dry rot they should be fine for a track day. Don't go out and buy Hoosiers for your first track day. Slicks give less feedback near the limit. The feedback at the limit is something a beginner really needs.

I would guess your car came with Ferodo HP1000 brakes pads, very common on GM performance cars. It is a pad a beginner could get by with for a track day fine assuming you have adequate pad life left. If you are looking at pads that don't appear to have a lot of life left Hawk lists HT-10's for your car for under $400 a set and I'm sure you could get them cheaper with some shopping around. If you needed rotors too it looks like you can do that for about $150. You can have your brakes fresh and ready to go with fluid for under $600 and you would still have your stock pads and rotors to flip back to for street use. Even that is taking it to the extreme worst case scenario for brake cost for getting started. Talking about $2000 to prep your car to attend your first HPDE is just silly.
 
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ShadowRuleZ said:
Helmet required?
Click to expand...

Yes, most require an SA rated helmet although there are organizations that will let you get by with a Snell M rated helmet. If you need to buy a helmet just get an SA. If you have an M you can try to find someone that is ok with it but probably still better off just getting an SA.

There are great deals on SA2010 rated helmets right now due to the SA2015 spec helmets rolling out this year.
 
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