2012 regal gs

"Bailouts" ≠ Capitalism

It is already considered a shameful moment in the history of American Capitalism.
 
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CRASH said:
I'm not going to disagree. But you have yet to answer my question. What's the alternative under the circumstances?
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C'mon Dan, it is pretty obvious what the proper thing to do was. Let GM go out of business causing one million people to be unemployed in the middle of the biggest recession in 70 years. Then, the private sector (with it's bankrupt credit markets) would come together to bail out the rest of the industry starting with a couple thousand suppliers, and the last two OEM's (who would also go bankrupt because they couldn't afford to keep their suppliers open anymore).

What were you thinking! Get on the ball Dan!

-Geoff
 
CRASH said:
I'm not going to disagree. But you have yet to answer my question. What's the alternative under the circumstances?
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We will never know because we didn't have a chance to see.

Who knows, but one thing that could have happened is that all of the suppliers may have bought up their segments and became specialists in that area. Part suppliers may have bought the engine side and sold engine packages instead of engine parts. Same with chassis companies or interior. Maybe we would have seen the next revolution of automobile manufacturing, the biggest since Henry Ford. Maybe cars would be built in modules by 5 companies and the flexibility would allow the cost to have been cut in half and we would have top notch American cars selling for less than the "foreign junk".

We as Americans have ways at excelling at anything we do if we want too. Sometimes it takes a drastic measure to make the survival mode kick in and the realization is that "hey why didn't we do this earlier?" There might need to be a catalyst introduce to the solution to see the reaction quicker before the experiment is considered a failure. But when you change the normal formula before the reaction ever has a chance you will not know the outcome that should have been.
 
WhiteHawk said:
C'mon Dan, it is pretty obvious what the proper thing to do was. Let GM go out of business causing one million people to be unemployed in the middle of the biggest recession in 70 years. Then, the private sector (with it's bankrupt credit markets) would come together to bail out the rest of the industry starting with a couple thousand suppliers, and the last two OEM's (who would also go bankrupt because they couldn't afford to keep their suppliers open anymore).

What were you thinking! Get on the ball Dan!

-Geoff
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We can all make assumptions, but we'll never know what would really have happened.
 
lucky7 said:
We can all make assumptions, but we'll never know what would really have happened.
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That's not an assumption, it is a fact. First the big suppliers would go down. Not maybe, they would go down. Magna - gone. Inteir - gone. Delphi - gone. Visteon - Gone. They are way too leveraged in future tooling to eat all of those big bills. They would be gone in bankruptcy within a month. Then the tier two's, then the smaller tooling shops and suppliers would follow. Then the OEM's that were left - Ford, Chrysler, even some transplants - would have to either come up with the money to run their suppliers, or find non-bankrupt suppliers to run the tools. And where were they going to come up with the money? Credit markets were crashed, remember? Nobody was loaning money - and why would they loan it to the auto industry in the middle of a massive shutdown?

Obviously you have no clue how the auto industry works. So just keep dreaming.

-Geoff
 
All the credit markets were dried up. The only people with money... The Middle East oil potentates and CHINA!! And they are both sitting on stacks of OUR MONEY! The OPEC boys have no interest in running a car company. Those few fortunate enough to still have a "auto job" would have to learn to speak Mandarin in a hurry.

Without the U.S. Government stepping up, there would be NO "U.S. Auto Industry". The ripple effect would have been catastrophic. I don't like the fact that we got into this position, and I don't like the way it was handled, but I don't see any scenario where it could have played out any differently. Frankly, based on where we were as an industry looking ahead to today: Even with the job losses, and the effect of the tax base getting ripped out from under our local governments, we all came out smelling like a rose...
 
CRASH said:
Damn right son. Fuck Asian cars. There's very few 'real' cars that are Asian. The girl I'm dating now drives a Corolla, and it cuts me to the bone. But she's so hot I guess I have to overlook that. :lol:
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She's not hot. It's common sense that hot girls drive VWs. :lol:

Nick
 
OldbutNew said:
All the credit markets were dried up. The only people with money... The Middle East oil potentates and CHINA!! And they are both sitting on stacks of OUR MONEY! The OPEC boys have no interest in running a car company. Those few fortunate enough to still have a "auto job" would have to learn to speak Mandarin in a hurry.

Without the U.S. Government stepping up, there would be NO "U.S. Auto Industry". The ripple effect would have been catastrophic. I don't like the fact that we got into this position, and I don't like the way it was handled, but I don't see any scenario where it could have played out any differently. Frankly, based on where we were as an industry looking ahead to today: Even with the job losses, and the effect of the tax base getting ripped out from under our local governments, we all came out smelling like a rose...
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I agree. The effects would have been felt by virtually all OEMs, both domestic and foreign.
 
^ Also sickening.

WhiteHawk said:
That's not an assumption, it is a fact. First the big suppliers would go down. Not maybe, they would go down. Magna - gone. Inteir - gone. Delphi - gone. Visteon - Gone. They are way too leveraged in future tooling to eat all of those big bills. They would be gone in bankruptcy within a month. Then the tier two's, then the smaller tooling shops and suppliers would follow. Then the OEM's that were left - Ford, Chrysler, even some transplants - would have to either come up with the money to run their suppliers, or find non-bankrupt suppliers to run the tools. And where were they going to come up with the money? Credit markets were crashed, remember? Nobody was loaning money - and why would they loan it to the auto industry in the middle of a massive shutdown?

Obviously you have no clue how the auto industry works. So just keep dreaming.

-Geoff
Click to expand...

I am well aware of all of the threats that were posed, but at the same time I feel like something else would have happened, and they'd still be around. I am really curious to what exactly life in the midwest would be like if everything you laid out, happened exactly as such. And no, I will never agree with the bailout.
 
Corporate 'bailouts' have been going on for decades. These involve railroads, airlines, the housing industry, the banking industry and the auto industry. How many on here bitched when the airlines received their bailouts from 'W' after 911 when no one would fly? Next time you watch a train go by with Conrail markings, thank Nixon for their 'bailout'. All the self righteous on here who think bailouts are new are sadly mistaken. Every Republican President since Dwight Eisenhower has presided over a corporate bailout of some kind. So please, just STFU about this stuff. The government does what is in the best interest of the country. Watching GM and Chrysler go out of business was not in the best interest of the country. Watching our banks go belly up, regardless of the reason, was not in the best interest of our country. Letting AIG fail was not in the best interest of out country (and those bastards got $85B). It's not this President. These will not be the last bailout.
 
lucky7 said:
^ Also sickening.

I am well aware of all of the threats that were posed, but at the same time I feel like something else would have happened, and they'd still be around. I am really curious to what exactly life in the midwest would be like if everything you laid out, happened exactly as such. And no, I will never agree with the bailout.
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Alan Mulally, the CEO of Ford, testified in front of Congress that he was in favor of saving both GM and Chrysler because he said that if they failed, they would drag Ford and their suppliers with them. You think it's better to play with social experiments and millions of peoples lives during a recession? This is smart to you? Go and drink Mit's Kool Ade.
 
lucky7 said:
I am well aware of all of the threats that were posed, but at the same time I feel like something else would have happened, and they'd still be around. I am really curious to what exactly life in the midwest would be like if everything you laid out, happened exactly as such. And no, I will never agree with the bailout.
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Yea, "something else" like a private sector collapse in the midwest and unemployment in the 50+% range? Government action was inevitable at some point in the crisis. Bush made the right call to do it before everyone lost their jobs. If you want to know what it would be like, put on shorts and a t-shirt and spend the night sleeping outdoors covered in newspapers down on the corner of Mack and VanDyke. Maybe "something else" will happen and you miraculously won't freeze to death or get robbed.

-Geoff
 
Swifster said:
Corporate 'bailouts' have been going on for decades. These involve railroads, airlines, the housing industry, the banking industry and the auto industry. How many on here bitched when the airlines received their bailouts from 'W' after 911 when no one would fly? Next time you watch a train go by with Conrail markings, thank Nixon for their 'bailout'. All the self righteous on here who think bailouts are new are sadly mistaken. Every Republican President since Dwight Eisenhower has presided over a corporate bailout of some kind. So please, just STFU about this stuff. The government does what is in the best interest of the country. Watching GM and Chrysler go out of business was not in the best interest of the country. Watching our banks go belly up, regardless of the reason, was not in the best interest of our country. Letting AIG fail was not in the best interest of out country (and those bastards got $85B). It's not this President. These will not be the last bailout.
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Swifty, you're all over this one!!! There really was no choice to preserve the American economy. And, uh, anyone seen what the banking industry's executive bonuses look like? Ford and GM profit sharing wouldn't pay the taxes on most of the bank bonuses!!
 
I'd be embarrassed living in an America where there's no domestic auto industry and everybody is driving a stupid fucking Asian car.
 
Swifster said:
Corporate 'bailouts' have been going on for decades. These involve railroads, airlines, the housing industry, the banking industry and the auto industry. How many on here bitched when the airlines received their bailouts from 'W' after 911 when no one would fly? Next time you watch a train go by with Conrail markings, thank Nixon for their 'bailout'. All the self righteous on here who think bailouts are new are sadly mistaken. Every Republican President since Dwight Eisenhower has presided over a corporate bailout of some kind. So please, just STFU about this stuff. The government does what is in the best interest of the country. Watching GM and Chrysler go out of business was not in the best interest of the country. Watching our banks go belly up, regardless of the reason, was not in the best interest of our country. Letting AIG fail was not in the best interest of out country (and those bastards got $85B). It's not this President. These will not be the last bailout.
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I know they have, and it's pitiful. It's fucked when a company is so big and so "planted" in one place. Everyone around them puts ALL of their eggs in the same basket and puts ultimate faith in whatever that big company is. Then you get a bunch of thick-headed idiots that believe what they are making is "better" than everyone else, when the reality is that they're producing absolute shit, and nobody is questioning it. Then because a select few have no real idea of what the fuck they're actually doing, the decisions they make completely fuck everyone that is tied into the system. Perhaps my desire to see failure stems from having absolutely ZERO respect for General Motors, and for as long as I can remember. The most fucked part about all the bailouts is the fact that we learn it is alright according to our government to do a shit job, and then be rewarded for it. I think it's one of those situations where people are so fucking dense that they need shit to hit the fan before they "get it". Of course I don't want to see the entire midwest in the shit, but you and I both know that shit isn't going to change, and history always repeats itself. If I remember correctly, this wasn't Chryslers first bailout. The shit infuriates me.
 
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