Torque Converter Choice

91Bird305

91Bird305

Club Member
Ok, the situation may bring itself about where I might have to swap converters (if it is damaged). The current TC I am running is a CK Performance 10.5" 3500 Stall (Street/Strip). Here are my basic list of mods.

87 LC2 bored .030 over
Stock Ported/Polished Heads
Stock Port Matched Intake
Roller Cam - 212/212
T&D Rockers
Alky
FMIC
Dana 60 w/ 3.54's
Probuilt 700r4 (Prostreet)
PT6776S Turbo

Anyways, so should I stick with the same style converter or should I go with a different stall & smaller size? Lockup or non-lockup? Brand? I picked this current TC when I had a Te45-a on the car. This is a street car that I drive on a daily basis. Thanks.
 
What's wrong with the current converter? The 10.5 from ck is a nice converter. Are you running the 700 or the 200-4r? If there is nothing wrong with the current converter, i'd keep it just the way it is.
 
700r4

Yeah, I don't plan on replacing the current converter unless it is damaged. This is more of less a "just in case" scenario.
 
That is a 10.5 northstar converter. Other than the lock up disc burning up, It's a real rugged converter. It would take a lot to break one. I use the 10.5 nothstar for real serious turbo cars.

Mike.
 
Lock up disc could have burned up since the lockup switch was never plugged in because of some relay issue. But the shop (CARS) where they dropped everything in at said it was no big deal on my car the way it was setup and to just pick up this relay (which i can't remember the proper name for it, maybe you can help me out) sometime and plug it in. So I assumed my TC must have been a non-lockup? But CK Performance can't confirm that since I bought it like 3 years ago.

I am not a huge transmission guru.
 
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you should be able to get the numbers

off of the converter with the inspection shield off. I'm good friends with ck and his converter builder. If you can get me the numbers i can try to find out what it's suppose to be. If it was suppose to be lock up and you had it unplugged all this time, i suspect that you may have had issues with burning up transmissions.

Mike.
 
This is my first one (lost 3 & 4th gear) But yeah, I will try to get you the numbers off of the converter and let you know. Is the converter toast if the lock up disc is burned out or can that be replaced seperately? Do you know what relay Sean may have been talking about?
 
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91Bird305 said:
This is my first one (lost 3 & 4th gear) But yeah, I will try to get you the numbers off of the converter and let you know. Is the converter toast if the lock up disc is burned out or can that be replaced seperately?
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Your going to have to cut the converter open to replace the lock up disc anyways, the bearings should be replaced as well. It's doesn't cost that much more for piece of mind.

Mike.
 
No, I was on the phone with Phil's Transmission over in Clio.

Terry over there said the TC looks bad from what he can see so far and that he says it looks like it was due to heat from either the lockup switch not being hooked up or the TV cable being improperly adjusted and installed.

I told him my situation with the 89 TTA wiring harness and the lockup switch not being able to hook up to that 700r4. He recommended that I get this from B&M.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=BMM-70248&N=700+115&autoview=sku

I am starting to get pissed off knowing that this could have been avoided if the switch would have been hooked up to begin with. I don't know why a shop would tell me "It is ok to not have it hooked up for now with your setup." when clearly it was an issue and should have been either hooked up or an aftermarket lockup switch purchased and installed....

Sean, maybe you can help me out with this question?
 
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Phil's is a good shop. I thought that was mt morris over there though. Anyways, the b&m kit or the tci kit {it's the same suff} works good. Converter is probably a real dull black {probably real shinny in the beginning} or maybe the paint is flaking off. Converter internal endplay measurement would be a sign of the lockup disc and overall converter condition without cutting it.
 
Yeah, they are on the border I think. In front of Autocity Speedway. They do a lot of race cars out there.

Anyways, I will probably go with the b&m lockup kit and it looks like I need to waste more money on others mistakes and get a new TC.

Think I should go with the same converter?
 
91Bird305 said:
Yeah, they are on the border I think. In front of Autocity Speedway. They do a lot of race cars out there.

Anyways, I will probably go with the b&m lockup kit and it looks like I need to waste more money on others mistakes and get a new TC.

Think I should go with the same converter?
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I really like the 10.5 converter. You'd be in the same price range either way if you went with a 9.5. I think the 10.5 has better street driving manners for your situation. Why don't you have the current converter rebuilt? Ask terry if that is an option.
 
I can't see a fialure being cuased by not having the TC locked up. Maybe some heat in the trans fluid but most certainly not a TCC failure. What I can belive is one of 2 possiable scenarios

1. TV cable adjustment needed some refining and or the pull ratios we not quiet right.Easily beliveable due to the fact that the 200r4 pull ratio is a bit different then the 700r4 pull ratio IIRC


2. Valve body had an issue and the converter clutch was dragged cuasing the disc to burn. This could happen if the TCC selenoid got plugged up with clutch material from a fialing 3-4 clutch pack. It can force a partial apply.

Of those 2 scenarios #1 is more likely.

I am more inclined to belive that the 3-4 clutch fialure cuased polution of the ATF and thats a pretty common problem on the 700/4l60/4l60e transmissions when you start to make around 360hp to the tire. The question is why did the transmission fial. Most likely just weak or worn 3-4 clutchs and maybe a lack of part throttle line pressure. That would be a large problem on turbo cars. You can get so much TQ at low line pressure becuase the throttle does not have to be open to produce boost. Its a common problem on that unit with forced induction. Thats why I got behind engineering up the 4r70w/aode swaps for the ls1 cars. It is tough to get those transmissions to live behind big power reliably.

If you want to stick with the 700r4 get a manual valvebody with fixed line pressure and install a switch to engage the lock up clutch.






91Bird305 said:
No, I was on the phone with Phil's Transmission over in Clio.

Terry over there said the TC looks bad from what he can see so far and that he says it looks like it was due to heat from either the lockup switch not being hooked up or the TV cable being improperly adjusted and installed.

I told him my situation with the 89 TTA wiring harness and the lockup switch not being able to hook up to that 700r4. He recommended that I get this from B&M.
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=BMM-70248&N=700+115&autoview=sku

I am starting to get pissed off knowing that this could have been avoided if the switch would have been hooked up to begin with. I don't know why a shop would tell me "It is ok to not have it hooked up for now with your setup." when clearly it was an issue and should have been either hooked up or an aftermarket lockup switch purchased and installed....

Sean, maybe you can help me out with this question?
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Eh, I am not a transmission expert so I can't really debate on who is right or wrong. All I know is that I have one transmission shop telling me that it was the TC Lockup switch not being hooked up on a lockup style converter / possibly tv cable not being adjusted properly when everything was installed.

And then you telling me it's TV adjustment and valve body issue.

Story of my life. :lol:
 
To be honest it could be but most likely its the other scenario I pointed to. Line pressure rise. The 700r4 live and dies by line pressure.

Imagine this scenario for a moment.


25% throttle

50 psi of line pressure at say 1500rpm

engine make 200 lb ft.

Imagine this scenario

25% throttle

50 psi of line pressure 2000rpm 10 psi of boost

engine makes 350 lb ft.


Thats the problem with TV controlled line pressure on turbo and SC cars. You can have a really fast rise in TQ output from the engine without a similar rise in Line pressure to cover the extra TQ and the trans slips. Trans slips Valve body gets jammed up with debris all hell breaks loose.

Send the converter to Mike. If its my fualt I will pay to have it fixed.


91Bird305 said:
And then you telling me it's TV adjustment and valve body issue.

Story of my life. :lol:
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I'm not doubting your scenario. I can see how that could happen also.

I guess I will send the converter over to Mike to see what he can gather from it and maybe find out what caused it and go from there. Is that possible Mike or is there no real way to figure out what exactly caused this to happen?
 
Well the optimum fix would be Fixed line pressure " hard ass shift at light throttle" or a Vacumodlator controlled line pressure kit fron transgo. The vacum Mod is nice becuase it will control line pressure based on actuall engine load vs throttle amount. Better way to go really.

Yeah mike should be able to tell but I highly doubt the converter has had a clutch failure. The debris in the unit is probobaly clutch material from the 3-4 pack and its most likely gone everywhere by now.Worst case scenario is mike cuts it open cleans it and back together it goes.

Alot of shops will blame transmission failure on converters at inappropraite times.When the converter clutch is not being used it should not be seeing any wear thergo it should never fial. I worked at transmissions shops for years as the lead tech and diagnostic guy. The worst thing that could happen with no lockup clutch is extra heat.Now if we are talking chrysler FWD transmission yes the converters cuased transmission failures but that had to do with the hub design for the lock up clutch and that it would grind material of the hub and bind of the governor valve assembly.


However you have a very large front mounted cooler and even the non lockup 4500 stall converters we street drive have never had an issue with overheating with a cooler that size.

It is far fetched at best.I am inclined to belive 100% right now that your problem was inssuficient line pressure and the 3-4 clutch pack fialed outright.





91Bird305 said:
I'm not doubting your scenario. I can see how that could happen also.

I guess I will send the converter over to Mike to see what he can gather from it and maybe find out what caused it and go from there. Is that possible Mike or is there no real way to figure out what exactly caused this to happen?
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